Discussion Concerning Circumcision

Clifton 

The Rabbinical Court in Jerusalem rejected an appeal Monday by a Netanya woman fined NIS 500 ($140) per day for refusing to circumcise her son, as is required by Jewish law (halacha).

[source]

Trevor  Rabbinical court? Yikes.
Mike  “Removal of the foreskin prepares the soul [of the baby] to accept the yoke of Heaven and study God’s Torah and commandments.”

Oh, OK, then that seems like some sound medical practicing to me.

JT  To be absolutely clear, anyone who does *not* do this to his/her baby has displeased יהוה enormously: “In the most controversial part of this version of the Jewish ritual, known as metzitzah b’peh, the practitioner, or mohel, places his mouth around the baby’s penis to suck the blood to ‘cleanse’ the wound.”*

Mark  its just dirty not to, and painful when they reach adulthood, regardless of religion. gross. painful to get it done when an adult. why in the world its a big deal is crazy talk. dr’s put a band around it that falls off in no time. only uncircumcised men argue the point. ha

Clifton  “It’s just dirty not to”? Please, explain, Mark. I know that your knowledge all comes from personal experience, so I assume you must’ve seen a lot of dirty phalli in your time.
Mark  so funny you should say this, because my first experience came in boot camp when the drill instructor made everyone who wasnt circumcised stand in a line a pull their penis out, then pull the skin back, as soon as they did there was actual crud that was on the floor and the scribe threw up. The smell was enough to prompt the Drill instructor to call them out there.

i feel sorry for men who arent they dont even realize how disgusting they are, seriously, probably the reason women break up or wont stay with them, and it makes them have a crappy attitude and be angry and analytical, or pompous about small things, but its only because they have a hard time keeping their penis clean. utterly disgusting. you should google the history of circumcision, its hilarious. what a bunch of filthy people.

Clifton  I’m so sorry that you had to go through that dreadful-sounding “training exercise,” Mark. This helps explain, at least to an extent, your homophobia and your disdain for the country you once served (as evidenced by your apathy toward voting).

Your story reminds me of a “friend” I have who is not circumcised. He kept a journal, as a child, of things he would find in his foreskin: lint, nail clippings, watch batteries, eyelashes, baby corn, Vienna sausages, other people’s excised foreskin, et cetera.

When he got a bit older and became sexually active, he started to worry that his filthy Philistinism would be off-putting to members of the opposite sex. So, he began to shower regularly and discovered that his problem cleared up instantly.

Your story is striking as it’s difficult for me to imagine any person of normal intelligence being unable to practice routine hygiene unless somehow prevented from doing so. Therefore, I must assume that the phenomenon you witnessed is confined only to the Marines or to the military at large. Or, perhaps it was a prank.

Mark  so funny. no disdain for country, its odd to be told that by a citizen who hasn’t served, but i guess. i had forgotten you were uncircumcised, i suppose people do and can keep it clean, its vile though and i can only assume that partners find it disturbing.

i am as homophobic as a person can be i suppose. i often wonder if arsonists call people who don’t like fire starters ‘arsoniphobes’ or’ pedaphobes’ or ‘killaphobes’…..i suppose you would know or maybe you could snope it or wiki it, all knowledge comes from there these days.

Voting is my right to do or don’t, i actually fought for that right while you contemplated what uninteresting words are no longer used, or how society has wronged you, or why eggshells are white, or what would Carl Sagan say?

i am a bit of a pessimist myself, its in my blood, or ive been told as much. Perhaps at some point you will have some kind of knowledge brought on by experience or maybe if you were circumcised, by a mate of whatever sex you chose, i’m fine with your sexual choice it doesn’t bother me.

Clifton  You know, Carl Sagan was a Jew whose parents probably had him circumcised. I think he (rightly) regarded it as an unnecessary medical intervention, though.

I wondered if I was gay as late as high school. Turns out I was just a liberal. Which isn’t even an order of magnitude more acceptable in Apache Junction, AZ. I hope none of your kids are gay, bi, or non-Stone-Agers. If they are, I foresee a lot of sad times ahead of them.

I regret suggesting in the past that you vote. I would like to withdraw that suggestion. It might be possible to drag the political system farther backward even in Tennessee.

Your visits were always a source of joy for me during an often nightmarish childhood, Mark. I think it’s unfortunate that our interaction these days is mostly just you unleashing your inner troglodyte under my posts. Each comment widens a wedge. If that’s what you want, then you are succeeding.

Mark  Clifton i think you live under an ignorant veil of knowledge, and i also believe that you have a sense of a right to degrade people without repercussion because of your ‘wisdom’.

i regret that we have difference of opinion, but i am not angry at all, a little perturbed by your ignorance of lack of respect, but i get it. i would be upset at myself if that wedge grew wider, but conversation with you is no different than with your mom or your cousins, its one sided from each of us, neither hearing the other. you bring a little intelligence to the table but you are rude, arrogant, and non caring of others. your comments are dry and without flavor or humor 90% of the time.

i know you because i know your Mother, same person. i care about her but she is like a wounded animal when she gets recoil from her words, just like you. how odd that the apple does not fall far from the tree.

If my children are gay or not, i will love them, but i will never except homosexuality is normal. Your new age to my stone age is another ridiculous notion that you will come to see as you get older, nothing changes the human condition, not cell phones, computers, or knowledge without work.

How nice it must be to parrot the work of others without living it. im sure you heard that before. its not my goal to upset you, but you must know what a disrespectful person you are, we ar from the same family.

you probably see yourself as something new when you are just a copy of previous models. Read your posts and comments, my guess is that you wont find issue with anything you have written before. The oblivion you have is the same you cant stand in your mother.

Clifton  So, to be clear, Mark, you would love your gay child? Really? *Really*? I’m trying to play this in my mind.

Mark: “Being gay is the same as being an arsonist, pedophile, or murderer. You are gay. Therefore, you are no different from an arsonist, pedophile, or murderer. However, I still love you.”

Mark’s Gay Child: “So, Dad, do you love me as much as your non-monster children?”

Mark: “Of course, my gay child. Although you are a monster, I love you just as much. Doesn’t that help mitigate the sting of being a monster?”

Mark’s Gay Child: “Yes, Dad. Thank you so much! I think I will go clean that gun you bought me for my birthday now and hopefully not accidentally end my own monstrous life. However, if I do accidentally blow my head off, I want you to know that it will have been completely accidental and won’t have been related in any way to this conversation. Goodnight! I ‘love’ you too!”

What do you think? Ballpark, maybe?

Rachel  I feel like you are both trolling everyone, because there is NO WAY someone can be this ignorant. Thanks for the read, I laughed several times over. If I thought this was real it would be immediately sent to /r/facepalm. Ya’ll crazy.
Mark  Thank you Rachel. You must know Clifton on a personal level, much of his character is made up of condescending, taunting, rudimentary, suggestion. I think he believes himself a Nazi and everyone else Jews, bowing at his feet, and laughing at his mundane jokes, but then if you knew him, you have heard his terrible, terrible failures at being a human being. Someday, i hope to understand what its like to be as smart as he is with no field experience.
Rachel  Wait, so you aren’t joking? This is real life? I knew Clifton in high school, he was a great guy. His posts now on social media seem insightful, humorous, and intelligent. I assumed the two of you were doing a sort of Andy Kaufmanesque sort of thing here. If that isn’t the case, I think you need some serious therapy. Rachel out.
Mark  such is life. everyone is never in agreement with what they believe, especially if it is common thought. i have no problem with not being on the same page as everyone else. common thought killed 6 million Jews.
Clifton  Mark, out of curiosity, what did the Nazis think of homosexuals?
Rachel  You cannot make the unreasonable see reason.
Clifton  I do not agree, Rachel. I think if enough people believed that, we’d’ve had no Civil Rights, Women’s Rights, Gay Rights, or Animal Rights movements. The world’s a better place because of people believing that some minds, no matter how stubborn, can be made to see reason.
Rachel  That’s true. But I think this guy might be the exception to the rule. Maybe I should’ve said the ignorant don’t see reason.
Mark  oh wow. you guys believe you are right as well. how weird.
Clifton  Mark, what did the Nazis think of homosexuals? I’m still curious. I don’t want this question to get lost in the mix.
Mark  they were probably against it.

i was speaking of everyone thinking in one mindset, like with racial indifference as well. i am for gay rights, and equal rights, and the rights of anyone. i dont have to agree with those rights, and im not gay bashing.

you are trying to condemn me because i dont see the same as you, but i am older than you both and been around the world, you have seen or done nothing except jump on the righteous band wagon. Bravo. you are persecuting me as you do people who have religion, you’ve made a mockery of me. i am not a stranger to children and their fickle ways. your ways will change with experience.

Clifton  Mark, to equate homosexuality with arson, pedophilia, and murder is gay bashing.
Mark  i wasnt aware of that, however i think you will find that those people believe they are born that way as well. Also, i would wager that most gays have been sexually molested as children given the statistics on child molestation. is that bashing?
Rachel  Yes, because your statistics are not factual. I would like to share with you what Nazis thought of homosexuals. They were made to identify with pink triangles on their clothes, stamped with an ID number, and held in the camps right alongside the Jews. They were starved, raped, forced into excessive manual labor, tortured, experimented on, and killed. For someone who boasts intellectual superiority, you should seriously consider (even minimal) fact checking. Otherwise, go gobble your turkey and grunt at football like real men do, and leave us silly children to our silly ideals.

You know, age has less to do with intelligence than you claim. Your IQ stays the same your whole life. I’m 31, I went through school… but I can easily admit that my sister who is 18 and just got accepted to UCLA on a scholarship is way smarter than me. It doesn’t even bruise my ego to say so. You should seriously consider listening to what Clifton has to say without being so derogatory towards him and his family. He’s a really good dude.

Mark  thank you Rachel. i will have to look up the gay prison camps, never heard of them. I never mentioned what the statistics were. i actually took a class on it for a job. its 2 out of 4 girls and 1 out of 4 boys, but not all are turned in, also, i took the class about 3 years ago so there may be more stats.

i dont watch sports at all, unless i get invited to a game and my wife loves hockey and i go with her several times a year. if you read what was said maybe, or get your sister to read all the comments, or maybe she will be blind by the non acceptance i have as well, and label me for that alone.

i also said i am pro rights, but im sure, judging by your retort that you didnt read what i said, but rolled with the label you had given me, which is exactly what you are condemning me for. that is ignorant. as if its ok to persecute someone for their beliefs. bravo righteous do nothing nerds. lol

also, i am his uncle, and i potty trained him to boot. But im sure you arent reading this, but researching a comeback, or making one up. clever.

Rachel  No Mr. Smartest Guy. I was having Thanksgiving with my family, as this is very likely my last one. (Stage 4 Cancer). You shouldn’t be angry though, just because you happen to have a discussion with someone who knows more about something. Your remarks come across a bit… jealous. Also, despite when you got your statistics-they are fictitious. So either you’re making them up or your source is. Either way, I defy you to show any actual evidence. ‘Cause you can’t.
Mark  You will overcome your cancer, im sorry i got you all worked up. Those were statistics, but what difference would that make anyway? would it make a difference? The class i took was eye opening to be sure, i never looked at it as an anti gay class or even a cause till i thought about it. i cant believe the amount of persecution i get for not being pro gay, even though i am not against gay rights.

its so typical that its just another justification for righteous hate mongers. its ok to hate someone if everyone else does. hypocritical propaganda. My same argument against voting. Armatus Abuse Risk Management is the class i did.

Clifton  Rachel, it’s nice of you to try to take on my poor Uncle Bigot. If this might be your last Thanksgiving, though, please, please, please don’t waste a second reading any more of this awful, soul-crushing thread.

Mark, I just came from Susan’s place. You’ll be happy to know that, like you, she still thinks that gays are the same as pedophiles. She also thinks that a bearded man in the sky intervenes in her day-to-day affairs, that a young girl (Mexican, of course!) next door crawled through her doggie door in order to beat her cat with a broom, that she receives premonitions in dreams, that Obama is going to start a war to get a third term in office, and so on.

Don’t think that I begrudge her. She’s just crazy.

You, on the other hand, you just believe in beardy sky god. The god who can’t be bothered to prevent the deaths of 20,000 completely innocent children per day, but who somehow cares what each and every member of His flock does with its genitalia.

One last thing: I think you knew of the severity, the maliciousness, and the mercilessness of the beatings that I routinely received as a child. I think you knew and did nothing. In your position, I would’ve intervened. Besides your bigotry, this is why I can never respect you. Happy Thanksgiving.

Mark  and a happy thanks giving to you. sorry your day was not any different than you would have expected.

i dont really remember seeing you get beaten. in your mind im sure you think they were equal to hell on earth. not sure if i would have intervened either, having been raised the same way. i got my butt wooped and always for a reason, i never carried it with me through my life though. obviously you did.

i come from a different time and breed of people who reflect on the childhood i made it through, as a badge of honor, and i would never complain about it scarring me. the things that scarred me was moving around and never being accepted and being bullied by teachers, but im not a victim, partially because i have done alot more things worth talking about, and partially because it made me stronger.

having people acknowledge your worth through deed instead of the hand your were dealt. you have to reach down and pull some courage out and drive on. you can do it. i am what i am and strive to be better. im sure a psychologist can tell a great deal about who i am from the crass things ive written, but the same is true for you.

i bid you good evening and peace to you and hope whatever brings you back to God isnt too crippling, but you will be back, i may not see it, but you’ll come around, they always do. Good day.

Clifton  OK, Mark. You would interpret that as me claiming to have been permanently scarred. The point was that you can’t pretend to be a defender of children (i.e., saving the children from the kid-raping homosexuals) when you not only have failed in that department, but also worship a deity with clearly no concern for children. It shouldn’t matter how you’re raised. Of course, you’re blind to that, though.

It’s been a long time coming, but I am finally going to block you. Just thought I’d warn you.

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